April 1, 2020 at 6:32 pm #1503
Just a quick note about several new skills that are being looked at that may/are initially unique to the Getham. Skills being considered in no particular order is architecture, art and letters. These are ‘artistic’ skills and depending on the skill level, perhaps investment and skill success, can bestow upon their patron(benefactor) or the beneficiary named, certain benefits, which can range from added renown to a character, added faction support to factions/religious factions within a specified city or an increase in the crisis index of a city.
Characters with these skills should never be allowed to be the beneficiaries of their work. They must name a beneficiary for the work they produce. The patron (he/she that sponsors the work (hires the artist) may name any target, including themselves as a beneficiary.
Architecture in this sense, think Notre-Dame
Art, think the Sistine Chapel (frescoes)
Letters (essays), think Thomas Paine’s Common Sense.
Targets/beneficiaries may get differing benefits depending on the skill employed. Example would architecture may prove a greater benefit to a city than to an individual while art may provide a greater benefit to a religious faction that the city while letters/essays would provide more benefit to characters than to a city. There some balancing here obviously that Jon will need to look at and decide how best to apply the various benefits from the differing skills to the different targets. Some preeminent works such as the Notre-Dame example or Sistine Chapel may provide benefits each turn as an on-going ‘wonder’ so to speak.
These skills would fall in line with the Getham’s mission and description of working towards an Age of Enlightenment, Renaissance and Rebirth of Midgard. Of course, some, none or all may be used or not. Jon is looking these over and seeing if they add anything of value and if so, how best to incorporate and balance them into game play.
April 5, 2020 at 9:27 am #1533
Interesting Nazareth, will give it some thought and get back to you.
April 5, 2020 at 8:26 pm #1536ParmenionParticipant
Architecture I think, belongs more properly to the Guilds. If you look to modern precedence, the Worshipful Company of Architects and the Worshipful Company of Constructors (both part of the City of London Livery Companies) both comprise part of London’s ancient and modern trade associations and guilds (an organisation which in itself dates back to the 12th century). Although both Worshipful Companies mentioned are modern establishments.
Art and Letters might also be considered a component of the Worshipful Company of Arts Scholars (another Livery Company) but then if you look at it from the perspective of the Getham wanting to control the press (which in itself is definitely a form of commerce), then hey, go for it. Midgard needs a Washington Post to keep those Knowledge seekers in line 😉
April 6, 2020 at 1:04 am #1539ParmenionParticipant
One point in regards ‘wonders’. From my five minute look, the shortest build time of what we consider a wonder (the Colossus of Rhodes) was 12 years. Therefore conceivably, a ‘wonder’ should take 100+ turns to complete (if each turn is a earth type month).
Notre Dame took 182 years to construct, from start to finish.
April 6, 2020 at 5:57 pm #1542
Good points Parmenion, Let me address those points and my thoughts concerning them.
First, the point of time. The Suez Canal took 14 years to build but I don’t think we expect 14 years in-game time to complete a canal. This would be the case in most construction in-game projects. We assign man-cycles, cost and in some instances skill in determining time and success in completing projects such as ships, walls, roads, special projects, etc. We’d never live to see many of them completed in real time, at least not myself. With respect to preeminent constructions such as Notre-Dame, I imagine the artist (architect) would have to have max skill in architecture and then hit a, most likely low percent chance of creating such a magnificent structure once completed. However, since those exceptional structures do exist, means that the opportunity should be there. Not that you would see it often.
Second, the point of guilds. I thought about the guilds, but architecture is this sense is of the artistic variety, not standard buildings, roads, walls, sewers etc. Artists, painters in particular had a guild and since many artists painted as well as produced sculptures, one could argue that it should belong under guilds. However, Weaponsmiths/armourers also had guilds, yet we have factions (Boda and Sea wolves) that can make their own weapons. Additionally, the rules state that Guilds “Can build various Guild Houses that add Production capability to Cities”. Production capabilities to cities. I would argue that these production capabilities in this context implies creating ‘quantities’ of goods (mostly mfg goods), not works of art.
Third, letters. Writers such as Machiavelli, Thomas More, Alberti and others often wrote essays/letters in support of or in opposition to various political rulers, ideals, thoughts, religions as well as philosophy, humanism, etc. Since the one writing letters must have a patron/sponsor, it could be used as a ‘literary weapon’ in a sense against a rival, political faction or religion, but that would probably bring some level of danger to the author, especially since the author would be known and the sponsor perhaps might not be, at least initially. Of course, they also could be used to author positive literature on behalf of those targets. Not sure if people want that skill available, but isn’t there an assassin skill available?
Its not a matter of the Getham or anyone else wanting to control the press, its a matter of needing to hear more than one voice in the world. However, perhaps letters is one skill that shouldn’t be included. Maybe none of these should be included if they don’t add anything to the game. However, I note quite a few skills other than what is listed in the rules have been incorporated into the game. Wonder how they got in?
my unprofessional opinion
April 6, 2020 at 7:04 pm #1543DreamWeaverParticipant
From the current version of the rulebook page 26…it reads as follows:
Below is a list of the most common skills available in the game currently. A general idea on how they are used to handle actions taken by the Clan Leader or Followers is also provided. This is not a listing of all the possible skills. Other skills do exist and will have to be sought by the players. The Training Halls are where you will find the rarer skills. BASIC SKILLS LIST
There are a number of skills in the game, that are not basic skills but they happen to be factional based skills. I should point out, if your looking for a skill, the best chance you will have is at a Seeker Tower Temple…it is one of their perks.
April 7, 2020 at 9:47 am #1550
April 7, 2020 at 11:40 am #1876
Having unique skills tied to the factional office and not to a training hall isn’t a without precedent. There is already factions who have unique skills not listed on the Basic Skills List of 35 skills.
Doesn’t Getham already have the unique skills not on that list of 35 basic skills? STW (Is this sneaky at taking Guild wealth?) and BRB (is this Backhanded Ring Bribery).
Don’t know if my guess of the acronyms are true and I don’t need the education on what they truly are… however if a faction has unique skills already tied to a factional office… could there be more appropriate one’s? Particularly with new faction write-ups. What you suggest doees tie into the spirit of the new Getham factional writeups, but in saying so, Parmenion thoughts are some good points. It depends on what Guilds really are/do like in your reply.
Have you considered factional abilities? Apparently no skill can duplicate a factional ability.
It also says on page 26
Skills belong to individual characters and do not duplicate any factional ability. These skills augment and modify special actions and battle actions, determining the chance of success of the special action or the outcome of a given combat.
Some of factional bonus at page 176 could be read as statements and not as actual abilities.
So there is no skills that anyone can train in where they can have Control over city markets, or Bred Livestock and horses, build various Guild Houses that add production capability to cities, make their own LI/LM, go Berserk in battle, be immune to sickness and disease, have the divination ability, have conversion techniques which are the best and finally can get % increase to find any trainer in any skill, to increase the happiness and loyalty of a city, or locate exotic items on a market.
oh dear… it occurs to me that maybe you don’t have access to the MER – Merchant skill now, the Seeker factional ability wouldn’t make that available to you. I can understand why you may need a replacement like architecture, art and letters!
Ok admittedly “unusual items” and “exotic items” are different words, but the spirit of them is very similar? Except if Getham can never find foreign items, seems you need the a religion, the Seekers to do that.
MER – Merchant: This skill will add to the % chance of locating unusual items, those items not normally found on the standard city market. This requires the use of a Special Action. Example: Have F1 (MER-2) search the city market for a pet tiger. There is a chance of success and the higher the skill, the greater the chance of success.
It would be a bit like the BREED Skill, only useful to the Roder since they have the ability to only Livestock and horse bred per cycle. I suppose there is elephants… oh wait that is it own skill ELE – Elephant Handling/Tactics
BRE – Breeding: This skill will give a % chance to execute a breed action successfully. It is still a Special Action and only has a % chance of success. It will also improve the results of any Breed Action by a % amount, the higher the skill rating the better the results.
Keep the idea’s comming Nazareth, critical thinking needs more voices, as they say “Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too”
April 7, 2020 at 6:09 pm #1877
Very few if any factional skills are unique to only one faction. Most are shared between factions such as your example STW, which I believe is also shared by the Ring and Seekers. So the Getham don’t have a monopoly on STW as other factions don’t have monopolies on other skills listed under their factions. Those listed are only what you are allowed to initially choose from. Maybe they should all go away and players can choose whatever they want to start, since you can acquire any of them later if you choose anyway.
Haven’t given thought to these being a factional ability as everyone would be able to be trained in those skills. The thought/proposal, and perhaps I didn’t articulate the new skills suggestions adequately, since these skill proposals tie into the Getham ‘mission statement’ (thus why they were worked up), Getham characters would be able to choose/assign skill points to these at startup if they so chose to do so. After the initial startup, if they wished to acquire these skills they would have to be trained or taught those skills as would every other character in every other faction. Everyone would have access to these skills. I thought since the Getham (and perhaps it should be added to their goal lists in some form) aspire to initiate an age of enlightenment and rebirth in Midgard, they would have the opportunity to choose from these skills at startup if they wished. However, if you feel this is a big advantage to the Getham or a bad disadvantage to the other factions, then we shouldn’t consider it.
Right on with the page 26 quote. As this would be skills, they would not duplicate factional abilities. That is why everyone would have access to those skills. Most players would see the benefit to themselves, cities and faction/religions by pursuing the arts in one fashion or another. While not every character would choose these skills, but because there is no limit to characters, some players might consider having a character here or there with these skills to further the influence of their benefactors, cities or factions. This snowballing effect would over time create what one might consider a renaissance. Players might see the benefit in having them.
You state that there are no skills that can duplicate factional abilities, although some offices do to some degree. But these skills don’t step on the toes of any of the things you mentioned any more than any other skill does that I can see.
Oh dear, it occurs to me that not only do I have access to MER skill, but to every skill listed or not listed in the game as I understand it. Training halls, universities, seeker towers, trainers, other characters can all train me in any skill in the game. Skills within your own faction are free of charge, but you can hire/buy training in the others with some effort.
Special actions and certain skills should allow you to do/attempt anything in the game yourself. Now your chances might be greatly enhanced with Seeker aid in certain situations or maybe enhanced by other parties depending on the action, but that’s what special actions are for.
The breed skill BRE is a basic skill available to everyone, not to be confused with the Roder special factional ability, which I assume (never played Roder) goes above and beyond what you get when using the basic BRE skill.
This seems to have gotten off on a tangent….. A little rambling somehow.
I never hinder anyone the ‘privilege’ to think/express ideals. I just ask a lot of questions, like you, when they do.
Me thinks this whole essay was nothing more than a backhand slap! You should acquire the skill ‘letters’!
In all seriousness, if everyone feels these skills should be left out of the game or perhaps introduced in some other manner, that’s fine. My thoughts, after seeing player comments and preferences was that maybe there wouldn’t be much interest in people playing the Getham. I wanted to spice up the faction some to get players looking at it as possibly their primary faction. Lots of reasons to pick up a cousin clan and take it as a secondary or tertiary faction for the benefits to your group as a whole, but I feared there would be a lack of players that would want to ‘own’ the faction (from a leadership point of view).
my unprofessional opinion
April 8, 2020 at 6:33 am #1879Steve-KortParticipant
I have to agree with Naz on this. Skills are not factional abilities. No clan should be forced into any set of skills no matter what faction they choose. Anyone should and could have BRE skill if they so choose that. This should be the same for any skill in the game.
I feel the whole purpose of Skills attached to factions is to list what the normal skills are for that Faction. So the Roder it would make sense they have people that now BRE skill and it is very likely if you were to go to there offices you could find a trainer in that skill. Just like if you went to a Getham office and wanted to learn a Merchant type skill. The main purpose of skills attached to factions where to better describe what the norm was in that faction and to better give you what that faction was about. It also allowed you to know where to go if that was something that you wanted to learn that skill.
Lets face it if you were to want to learn Naval skills that is not something you would really want to talk to the Boda about. Not that no one in the group knows nothing, just the fact that this is not the norm and would likely be very rare to find someone that could teach you a great deal or at all.
I see skills tied to faction as more of a road map of where you would have the best chance to be trained in some skills. Some of these skills might be common in many factions. Even the Seekers have what would be the norm, now they may have a better chance than others for the rare harder to find skills. The odds of you finding a great Strategy trainer there would not be as great as if you talked to one of the more Militant Factions as that is their norm for people in that group.
I see the idea of Getham being philanthropic towards the various arts interest and a nice addition of not making them just a group of greedy merchants.
April 8, 2020 at 8:11 pm #1888
April 9, 2020 at 2:01 am #1891
Nazareth, the “unique” word is the culprit.
Steve-Kort, Those words or similar would be a good addition to the rulebook!
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